Psyched to Practice
Join us as your hosts, Dr. Ray Christner and Paul Wagner, as we explore the far reaches of mental health and share this experience with you. We’re going to cover a wide variety of topics in and related to the field, as well as having experts share their findings and their passion for mental health. We look forward to taking this adventure with you and hope we can get you Psyched!“ Be well, and stay psyched!”
Psyched to Practice
Beyond the Bot: How Agentic AI Can Transform Education and Practice
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AI is moving far beyond simple chatbots, and many mental health professionals are wondering what comes next.
In the first episode of Beyond the Bot, Dan Florell and Adam Lockwood break down one of the fastest-growing areas of artificial intelligence: AI agents. They explain the difference between traditional AI chatbots and autonomous AI systems, where these tools can genuinely save clinicians time, and where they should never be used.
The conversation covers practical examples for psychologists, counselors, school psychologists, and private practice owners, including research reviews, program evaluation, website analysis, marketing insights, and automating repetitive administrative work. Just as importantly, they discuss the ethical boundaries, including why protected health information should never be shared with consumer AI tools and why curiosity should come before rushing to adopt new technology.
Whether you're just beginning to explore AI or already using ChatGPT, Claude, or Gemini, this episode offers practical guidance to help you understand where the technology is headed and how to prepare for it responsibly.
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To hear more and stay up to date with Paul Wagner, MS, LPC and Ray Christner, Psy.D., NCSP, ABPP visit our website at:
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“Be well, and stay psyched"
The following is a site to practice production.
SPEAKER_00Hi there and welcome to our very first inaugural podcast of Beyond the Bot, AI and Mental Health. I'm Dan Florel. I'm a professor over at Eastern Kentucky University and CEO of MindSci, in addition to uh the vice president of Psych to Practice. And with me today is Adam. Adam, why don't you introduce yourself?
SPEAKER_01Adam Lockwood, associate professor of school psychology at Kent State University. And I have a consulting business called Lockwood Educational Educational and Psychology.
SPEAKER_00It's good to get your own play here, Adam.
SPEAKER_01Lockwood Educational and Psychological Psychological Consulting.
SPEAKER_00So for all of you out there, one of the first lessons to learn is don't make your own business a huge mouthful to say when you're first getting there. So what is the focus? As you can tell, the focus of our podcast, and this is an initial episode, is to take about 30 minutes of your day every couple weeks to chat about AI and its influence in mental health. It's just going to be the two of us, Adam and I. We've had quite a few years of experience in AI, as much as anybody can really talk about it when it first burst on the scene in 2020 with the initial release of Chat GPT, though there was, of course, things going behind the scenes for quite a bit longer than that. And both of us have spent a fair amount of time and do quite a few trainings looking at the ethics of AI use and also how it might be applied within mental health settings, specifically more school psychology related. But we're going to start off with our inaugural issue looking at the promises and perils of AI agents, which, if you're just understanding initially what AI is, this is a whole other level. And I'm going to defer to Adam because Adam has many of his little AI bot minions working for him. And I know about them, uh, but am slightly intimidated by uh these little independent, autonomous things going on and skittering about and doing things uh that I'm not quite sure what they're doing. So, Adam, I'm going to be somewhat of a learner here, and you can kind of tout some of your expertise as far as how we might be able to use it within mental health. And of course, we also named it perils, so that there will be some drawbacks, I'm sure. But uh turn it over to you.
SPEAKER_01Sure. I think first it's a good idea to differentiate between maybe a chatbot and an agent.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I mean, like chatbots are basically uh ones that everybody's familiar with, right? You get your little phone out, you open up the app, and you start talking like it's a real person. And it goes ahead and responds and has all its little tendencies, like making you feel like you're a brilliant person in the world. And then agents, of course, are where you're going to go ahead and set it missions, and it will accomplish those missions any way it sees fit to get the end result that you are specifying for it. And I imagine the more guardrails and specifics, probably the better return you get on those agents. But that's just the off the top of my head, kind of what the difference between the two would be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, first of all, I like you said, you talk to the chatbot, because at this point I don't type. Do you type still?
SPEAKER_00I'm still a typer, you know. I'm even a clumsy texter. You know what it is? I just, especially when I'm out and about, I'm a little uh conscientious about talking to my machine uh out there. So I haven't really embraced that yet. I need to, because that's actually the way that I usually communicate. Like when I know I have decent ideas, I talk them through, but I usually find colleagues to do that with. And I guess uh, you know, if I don't find colleagues, this will be a nice little option here. But in the back of my mind, playing that sometimes it gets a little too enthusiastic about my own ideas and doesn't push back enough. So I take it though, you're definitely into the verbal descriptions. And I think the couple times we've hung out, you know, online and to talk about things, I see how you work with that. Any advice on it, or is it just so natural that you really don't have to think about learning yet another skill and ways of framing things? Kind of I'm thinking like prompting, right? Prompting, if the more specific and the more context-driven, usually the better results you get.
SPEAKER_01Well, I don't think people need to learn how to talk. Most people know how to talk already. So just talk, ramble. The truth is the earlier, the early research that's coming out is you get better output if you talk, because it's through this kind of rambling what you say, maybe not. Well, let me think. It gives the AI some insight into kind of the inner workings that you you have going on that you normally would self-censor by typing. And so by doing that, you actually get better output. Not only that, it's just faster. Um, and it you know can produce carpal tunnel.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, you know, I think I know why I have now that we've been discussing it, why I have this mental block about it. It's because way back when I got into dictation software a bit, and where you go stop, and you know, for a period, and you had to be pretty precise because if you put in your ums and everything, it messed up what it was transcribing. And this obviously, this technology doesn't do that, but I have this prior technology mental block that I think is causing some of the issues with me doing the interaction with AI because that previous learning is telling me like, no, you have to be precise, otherwise, it's gonna mess it up.
SPEAKER_01Don't worry about being precise.
SPEAKER_00Gotcha. I'm checking that off.
SPEAKER_01What I'll say about agents, how I use them, is they're essentially chatbots that have arms and legs. And so, as normally, if you're using ChatGPT, for example, you might be like, Well, I want to create a blog and it will give you information, and you go back and forth, and then you take that information and you might paste it into your blog. In this case, it works autonomously. So I might have that back and forth and say, okay, now great, go to my website, update my language. It just takes the human out of the loop so much. They they they refer to it as the sandwich or the burger. You have human on the front end, so we'll have a back and forth with AI, figuring out what exactly we want to do. Once we have a plan, you send it out to go do it, and then at the end you check and you you act as a human in the loop. But all that cutting and pacing, going back and forth, is eliminated. All of the busy work, all of the kind of boring stuff that you don't want to do can be outsourced at this point.
SPEAKER_00So when you say that, what comes to mind with me is that you are giving access to this AI, to things that require your passwords and you know, your different basically personal information that I think would give some people pause. I mean, is this all retained that you I mean, have you looked up and see like how is this retained within Chat GPT? Um, you know, like what safeguards are there that it doesn't just go gonzo one day and all of a sudden you have 50 appointments with a massage therapist, you know, in California or something.
SPEAKER_01Well, you got to be careful because the truth is agents have gone and deleted files that were very important. So you need to make sure that you sandbox. So the first thing you do is you start out and give it access to an email account that is um burning. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I'll give you a use of one of my, I'll give you an example of a use case. I get a lot of Google Scholar alerts that are just AI articles. I get six emails a day. And within those, about every day it works out to about 48 different articles. I have an email account that's just a burner account. I use it for nothing but that, and I let AI have complete read access to it. It can't send anything out from there, but it can read those. I definitely wouldn't want my bank statements going there. I certainly wouldn't want patient or student information to go in there. But that's that's one way. And then I give it access to folders, but those folders are sandboxed. So it has its own folder within documents that it can go, write files, edit files, delete files, but it cannot leave that folder.
SPEAKER_00So when you talk about that folder, is that like for me, I have Dropbox, and let's say I wanted to give you access to a folder. I could request and say, hey, give this access, but that doesn't mean you have carte blanche in my whole Dropbox, you know, account. You just have the access to one folder. And I guess, you know, this is where I need to do a little more research, but like to get the agents going, is there a particular agent button for our common like Google Gemini? I know you've been using Chet or Claude. I mean, is there something that's labeled agent on the side and you click on that and start setting things up? I mean, where would people get a better idea of how to even try this out? Because I I wouldn't even know. You know, I guess I could ask Chet, like, how do I use your agent?
SPEAKER_01But yeah, I guess I should say that I'm using agent as a fairly loose term. I think this is more like agentic AI. That means it has some autonomy and can work on its own, can go to achieve goals with feedback from me. The two there, and there's a wide spectrum. You have like open cloud where people are running their own open weight or open source. It's just models that they're running on their own machine, or they might be using indirect access to other models. But the easiest entry point would be either codecs, which is open AI, so it's essentially Chat GPT, or Claude Anthropic Cowork.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01But I know mostly Codex because if you've ever used CLOD, you know that the the use limits are pretty stringent with tokens, just meaning they give you a set amount of use of the product, and when you use too much, it will say, hey, you're done for three hours. Actually, Codex will do that too, but it's much more generous.
SPEAKER_00And you say this, is this where people would need paid accounts regardless, and they still have the token limits, or is this the free accounts that you uh run against the token limits more typically?
SPEAKER_01You should have a paid account, just full stop. You get access to better models, it's $20 a month, which is an extremely good deal. Right now, this whole industry is being subsidized by the companies. Right. So with a $20 account, you can get hundreds of dollars worth of compute use. With a $200 account, I've heard estimates as high as like $8,000. So they're losing a lot of money right now because it partially because they want to get your use. They want to get you as a customer. But maybe that $20, it's worth it. I don't know if the free accounts of these have access. I doubt it. I don't know because I have paid accounts. Um, I could Google it or I could ask AI right now, but pay for the $20 for one of them. And and my guess would be ChatGPT. You have to, of course, remember that it's not HIPAA or FERPA compliant unless you have some sort of enterprise account. And you sure of that through someone at your company or organization or district, but or ChatGPT for teachers, you can have a FERPA.
SPEAKER_00Right. For the like Google, Google Gemini, uh, if you have an enterprise through that, you should be having some FERPA compliance in regards to any of the things you use within the school's account. Just because you work for a school and you set up a free account or something, that doesn't apply, right? It has to be within that email account. So just pivoting a little bit, how would someone use an agent or agentic AI within kind of mental health or within the school kind of setting, knowing that institutions may be a little reluctant to have these agentics running around doing autonomous things?
SPEAKER_01I wouldn't start by using it for healthcare or for school services. I would start by finding other repetitive time sucks in your life that you you want to automate.
SPEAKER_00And so in your case, I know it was uh really looking up research, which resonates with me because I am a research hound. I mean, I'm always downloading articles and putting them away and you know, throwing them through Notebook LM, uh, which I think you know could also be used for mental health, obviously. So think about all of the areas, even though Adam and I are very techie oriented and use it a lot for AI. You can imagine uh doing it for, say, reading comprehension interventions and coming up with the latest ways of tracking that or the novel ways to use curriculum-based measurement in a particular age group. You know, whatever setting that you're working in, one of the things that I think we have challenges with as practitioners is that continuing ed aspect and where we're advancing our knowledge to be the most cutting edge, hopefully, in whatever area that we are providing services in, because that's going to help our students or our clients. And it doesn't need to be where you're spending a lot of money. For that 20 bucks uh for one of these, you know, big clawed Chat GPT, you can get and be more well informed from a scientific journal kind of standpoint than I think you could ever when being in practice before. Like you don't have to be affiliated with a university anymore because Google Scholar and Google Scholar Labs has access to a tremendous range of journals. It's not comprehensive, but it's a heck of a lot more than, say, 10 years ago, most practitioners have. And I think if you use agentic AI to help boil it down, you give it some structure, set up a dummy email like Adam was talking about, I think it really can get you up to speed on stuff that will have a real impact on the way that you practice. When you say, I mean, that seems like a perfect use case because nobody's really worried about a journal article somehow getting loose. Um, you know, it's open source anyway. It already has it. The AI already has that information. And yet we can easily apply it to our clientele.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think it's not going to be too long before we're going to have HIPAA compliant agents. So getting an understanding of how this all works will just help you to be ahead of the curve.
SPEAKER_00Right, as opposed to trying to go from crawl to run right away, which can be very messy if you've ever seen a child that tries to go from crawl to run. It's just a disaster, face plants all around. We don't want that, the equivalent when we're using AI. And I think already, you know, we've got a sense there's a wide range out there. And one of the things Adam and I are going to run into is we're going to get a little too tech wonky sometimes because we've been living in this space for so long. And some of the shortcuts and things that he tells me and I tell him makes perfect sense to us. But as listeners, you know, it may, you may have a little bit more time to get up to speed. So we'll try to, I'll try to put the brakes on every now and then so we can explain a little further detail about what exactly we mean with some of this stuff. Because we didn't really pick the easiest topic to introduce people to our podcast. I think this is probably one of the most cutting-edge aspects from a general public, anyway, that most general public could utilize are these agentic AIs. I'm not talking about the programmers and all that, you know, that's really high in the weeds. But uh, would you agree, or would you say there's some other stuff out there that people need to be kind of aware of, even if they haven't quite used them yet?
SPEAKER_01Well, I was thinking when you said that, yeah, maybe this isn't the best topic for the first one. But so yeah, I don't know. Uh I can think of a couple of use cases for one for school psychologists and one for uh for people in private practice right off the bat. Yeah. So one thing that school psychologists should be doing, and they don't do as much because they don't have time, is program evaluation. AI, create a survey with me, upload the survey to Google Forms, whatever. All essentially with no work on my side. Very little. I mean, let's say you want to be careful, you don't want to give access to your Google Forms. I can understand that, but it could still generate the document that you could upload. But at this point, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say with the Google forms, would that be something that a say school psychologist could do within the enterprise suite? Like, does Google, because that's not one you've mentioned, does Google have some agent equivalency that we talked about with both Claude and ChatGPT that people in the school might be able to utilize um for doing something like that uh in a survey?
SPEAKER_01It's funny, Google has um kind of fallen behind in 2026. I thought ChatGPT won the race for 23, 24. I thought 2025 was Google's year. I think that the first part of 2026 was Cloud, and now I think ChatGPT if you're looking at just the big models. But yeah, there are agent platforms for um Gemini, but I'm not seeing their use very often. I think it's I think it's probably more within enterprises where they're being built.
SPEAKER_00Well, I was gonna say what I've been hearing lately is, and these are broad stereotypes, but the most consumer-focused AI, and by that I mean like general public, is more Gemini, like a lot of tools are coming out for it, that they're being very like that's the primary, what they're chasing. Whereas Claude is chasing more a business environment, and chat is starting to move a little bit more towards that business versus consumers, you know, general consumers or the public. And you can see that, like, you know, they had their little video creation snippet thing on ChatGPT that they decided to jettison. You know, I also have seen it in ChatGPT decided to go ahead and lessen where you could find learn mode. It made a big deal about how you could learn tutoring, you know, through it. And now it's still there, but I noticed they've buried it. It's not even on like the more button and then the more button, and you have to like actually ask, like, what happened to it? And they're like, well, we didn't want to feature it anymore. It still has that capability. Well, what it tells me is that they're de-emphasizing the usage for, say, a student population or a more public population, they're shifting to that more programming and like this maybe agentic view compared to say Gemini, where you can still feel see like learn mode is pretty prominently displayed. Would you agree with that kind of characterization? Or is it I'm sure there's some subtleties there? Would you say it's a decent characterization that Gemini has continued a more consumer slash student focus with things like learn mode, where chat is now pivoting more to business, and Claude has always been fairly more business oriented and has not really made as much effort to be more public consumer kind of something you would use in schools, unless you get the higher use.
SPEAKER_01That's fair. Yeah. So Jim and I is very much more personal use, and the other two are more enterprise. And with that, you know, I did remember that about a month ago, Jim and I came out with Spark, which is their agent, but I don't think of it as much of an agent because it's more like help me do shopping, help me, you know, give me my daily brief.
SPEAKER_00Like once again, kind of that consumer, yeah, you know, individual wants to gab something to help their life out a little bit, but this is not like a business oriented, give me a spreadsheet that's going to plan out, you know, our sales growth for the next quarter kind of thing. And I mean, that makes sense because we know that Gemini is embedded in the schools. They've Google Tools, the Google ecosystem has been offered in the public schools for free. For well over a decade now. And as they roll out their Gemini, you know, the idea is, and it's a good business idea, is that we want to go ahead and have all of our people learning and getting used to our AI so that they just continue using it. I mean, to me, that's the only explanation that anybody uses Facebook anymore, is because they grew up with it and that's what they're used to. Is it the superior social media network that's the best? Yeah, exactly. Laughable, but yet, you know, millions of people still use it. A lot of people in school psychology, you know, still use it. Um, and so I guess that's their approach, but is it the best product for what you're trying to get at? And I think with the agentic AIs, that it's kind of the theme for our episode today, uh you the answer would be yes, uh, you know, agents for Claude and Chat GPT are going to be better. But, you know, you have to, and I I always go back to this, Adam. You're like, why are you using this? It's a cool tool, but is there utility to learning this at this point? And if not, maybe you just wait a while until a use becomes apparent. Uh, hopefully, though, our little chat, we've given you a couple uses that you can try out things that might be quite helpful, especially if you're listening to this. We're recording this in the summer months. And the summer for me is always a time to have a little bit of fun and trying out new stuff when I'm not so pressed with all of the daily requirements of being in academia or being in the schools or you know, otherwise. So this is a good time to take advantage of that. Adam, you have any other suggestions? You said you had two agentic agent ideas. One was using the program evaluation and Google surveys or something like that, and kind of going that route, but you also had one for maybe people in private practice.
SPEAKER_01If I had a private practice and I was interested in driving business my way, I would have, if you have a website, you get all sorts of analytics. And those analytics never get looked at because it's just who has the time for that? I can point AI at my website. It can look at the clicks, which which pages get the most interaction, what I can do to improve the language. And this is these are things I used to do, but I would cut and paste and cut and paste. Now I can just say, go read my website. Go find me five other private practices in my area that have similar websites. Doing a market analysis. What can I do to put myself out ahead? I mean, if you're at all interested in business in that sort of way, it can be a way to increase visibility, which would be really good for someone who's either got inside private private practice or new to practice, or just wants to increase their visibility. So I do it in two ways with my website. I give it access to all my analytics. Google also gives me Google analytics that tell me uh where traffic's coming from. And then I also say, okay, now work as a marketing agent, go look at the other other companies that might be competitors. There's not a whole lot, luckily, right now. And just give me ideas for how to improve. And you know, a half an hour or an hour later, I'll get some feedback and I'll be like, oh, that's a good idea. No, that's not, or like dig in more here, and it's just back and forth where it's essentially like having an intern that I set loose to do research on the internet. So anything you want to find on the internet, you can have it go and do that.
SPEAKER_00Well, it sounds like even if you were going to say go into a salary negotiation with an agency or even your school district, though I know school districts aren't necessarily always into bargaining, but you could certainly go, you know, look up the last six months of help wanted in the area, you know, see if you can find any published salaries regarding these types of positions, what is the average, you know, and that would be a really good way of using it because I can only imagine the amount of hours that you might spend otherwise trying to ascertain. And I think that's one of the things because in you know, our fields, whether it's school psychology or even the broader kind of clinical, there are not enough of us out there. And so we are kind of in the bargaining, you know, we we have a little bit of a leg up because we can provide a skill that is not in high, uh well, is in high demand, but not a lot of very low supply. And so how can you bargain effectively where you're not just, you know, I want a million dollars a year, you know, that's obviously laughable, but you don't want to downplay either. And I think in fields uh with psychology, traditionally we don't really do a good job advocating for our own salaries, perks, and things like that. I find that in my private practice I have to keep encouraging my employees and things of like, hey, no, you're worth it. Like, you know, this is this is what you need to be arguing for. Like if you're working for a district, yes, they have a salary scale, but guess what? They make exceptions when they can't find anybody and have to have them. You know, so don't continually kind of shoot yourself in the foot because you need to look out for yourself in addition to the students. And one of the ways is that you get properly compensated for you know what is a hard job, especially when you're in season uh in school. So I keep thinking, as we chat longer, Adam, I keep thinking of other uses that aren't necessarily technically using personal information, which I think from what you've been telling me um in our conversation here, maybe that is not a starting point or even anything you should do at this point with a gentic kind of AI processes.
SPEAKER_01I would stay away from giving it access to anything that you um want to make it out of that. You don't want fed into AI. So no PII, no PHI. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I I would agree. Um, and just a quick PII, PHI, it's either personal identifiable information or personal health information. Protected health information. Protected, you know, I don't know why. It's because PII and PHI, they're basically very similar. And you're right, it's protected health information. But, you know, we just need to be very aware, it and that's any identifiable characteristics of, of course, any clients, students that you might be working with. So all of these what even if it's redacted. Right. And remember, AI, of all things, is really good at summarizing and finding things, right? And boiling down lots of information, condensing it to a high probability. By definition, like that's how the whole system works. So can you imagine any better kind of detective in trying to figure out who you've tried to blind some sort of information from? AI is going to be able to do that, probably most effectively of all its functions. And so just don't use any of it. And I would just steer clear if students keep it broad. If you're going to use these agentic AIs, I think as we go on with our future podcasts, uh, we will get into more use cases of AI where you can use PII, and that's within particular systems that have been set up for that purpose. But these general purpose usage, including especially agentics, I would say, you know, keep it broad, uh, can still be very, very helpful without, you know, even skirting the issues of legality and ethics. Agreed. All right, Adam. So believe it or not, we've survived our first half hour, and hopefully so have our listeners, as we kind of get into this whole uh back and forth. But uh, you want to leave our listeners with anything uh at the end of kind of a takeaway for them to maybe try in the next couple weeks before they come back and hear our next discussion?
SPEAKER_01I think just have fun. Be curious. That's in in general in life. Having fun being curious is a good thing. But for AI, I mean, if you can if you can embrace the idea that this is all new and this is all going to change, and this is something that can be fun, then it's gonna be a lot better than feeling like I have to stay on top of this to stay relevant. Um that's that's just not a good, that's not a good way to to feel. It's not a good approach. So if you just think of this as like, wow, this is a really cool, interesting thing that I can learn about that will increase efficiency and can help improve the services I provide, you're gonna, you're gonna have a lot more, you're just gonna be in a better headspace and you're gonna learn more and save time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I totally agree about the curiosity aspect. I mean, that's why I've liked technology over all these years and reviewed so much. It's not just AI, you know, it's how could this be utilized, how could this enhance what I can do? How can this enhance what other practitioners can do? You know, I think most of us got into it, right, to do well by our clients and students, and we want to be able to spend most of our time doing that. We don't want to spend it filling out forms, we don't want to spend it doing a lot of these kind of background things that these agencies now have a promise to maybe alleviate so that we can really focus on the core of why majority of us got into the field. So uh, but once again, not because you have to, because that's just where you see the promise. And some of these are gonna fall flat on their face and just be utter failures. I'm still struggling with this comic strip idea that I have uh that just hasn't quite come to fruition. But I was curious and I'll get it there. Maybe I'm just waiting for the technology to make it easier on me with these AIs. Like if something doesn't work, give it two months, return to it. You might find all of a sudden there's a button that'll do it, you know, in a tenth of the speed it would have taken two months ago. Um, you know, the field is just changing so quickly. And so, you know, being curious like that, I think is just a requirement. Otherwise, you're gonna get buried. This is not behavior analysis where you learn it once and it won't change in 50 years, kind of thing. You know, this is something that's changing every week. I know when I do my presentation, I looked back at what I was doing a year ago. I have like five slides left out of a hundred that I haven't had to change or update. And Adam, you probably have gone through three cycles of you know, full cycles of slide presentations that you just don't even use because they're no longer relevant.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's changing pretty rapidly. And I will say I met with someone in OpenAI last week who does the chet for educators, and that was my biggest ask because he was like, What would you like to see? I said, I'd like to see a FERPA compliant a way to use codecs in a FERPA compliant environment.
SPEAKER_00And he took notes.
SPEAKER_01I don't know what that means.
SPEAKER_00Notes are good, notes are not dependent on what's in here anymore, you know.
SPEAKER_01But I'm hoping, you know, that that one of these frontier AI companies will make this happen sooner than later because it's gotta happen.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree. Imagine it not. All right, well, I think we're gonna go ahead and wrap up then. Uh, thanks for listening to our initial Beyond the Box AI and mental health. I'm Dan Florell with Adam Lockwood, and we hope that you enjoyed it enough to come back in a couple of weeks. Uh, this is part of the Cite the Practice Podcast Network, and see you next time.
